Building Diverse and Empathetic Leadership with Areti Iles

Areti Iles [00:00:00]:
Dealing with people, I think, is just one part of leadership. I think the other parts are where is your organization going? What are you trying to achieve with this group of people you have in your organization? How are you gonna get them there? What support do they need to get there? Are they gonna have the right tools to to do their jobs properly? What training do they need to do their jobs properly? How are you gonna decide who the right person for your organization is? And all of those things, they don't really have anything to do with empathy. They're much more logical.

Neil Benson [00:00:33]:
Today, I'm learning from Areddy Ellis. She's the head of professional services for enterprise applications at Telefonica Tech in The UK. Aurelie shares with us her definition of leadership, which she broadens beyond the traditional constraints. We cover the differences between managers and leaders, the criticality of empathy for effective leadership, some tools that we can use from to measure our own personality or leadership styles, and even how leaders need support from their teams too. I have to admit, Aurelie's point of view challenged my own thinking at several times during our conversation, which is great. I love learning from leaders with different styles to mine. And whether your style already coincides with already or not, I'm sure you'll learn lots from today's conversation. Alrighty.

Neil Benson [00:01:23]:
Welcome to Practice Leading podcast. It's so great to have you on the show. You and I have been connected for a little while, so it's great to finally meet you. Thanks so much for joining me.

Areti Iles [00:01:31]:
Thank you for having me. Lovely to be here.

Neil Benson [00:01:33]:
On this show, we're trying to help people, become better leaders, help me become a better leader. I'm I'm trying to follow in your footsteps. You have a particular definition of leadership. We were we were just chatting, and you said it's possible to be a leader of one person. You can lead without having any direct reports. I'm fascinated by that idea. Tell us more.

Areti Iles [00:01:53]:
Yeah. So you can be a leader of yourself, basically. You don't need to have a person. You can just be a leader in your life, and we all are in a in a way.

Neil Benson [00:01:59]:
Yep.

Areti Iles [00:02:00]:
So it's an interesting thing for me because my my background is in in is in business management and kind of business strategy and that kind of thing and, my academic background anyway and a lot of the time there is this suggestion when you're talking about leadership that it's a person in an organisation that has the responsibility of looking after people below them so to speak from a structural perspective.

Neil Benson [00:02:24]:
Yes.

Areti Iles [00:02:25]:
And that is a leadership role and anything else is not the leadership role. I I understand that and I'm not against that but I think it's a very narrow view of what leadership really is about because you can be a leader in your field and okay that may not be a leadership role but you're still a leader in in what you're doing with that. And at the same time also you could be leading people in an organization without actually being directly linked to them at all.

Neil Benson [00:02:53]:
Right.

Areti Iles [00:02:53]:
We all have our kind of different people that we influence, people that will listen to us, you know, we have people that we're closest to or at least less close to in an organization as well. Yeah. So we have those relationships. So I think who is a leader is actually a bit of a broader definition for me. And I think from a leadership role perspective, it can be quite narrow. And, actually, I think we have people that are great leaders, and we have people in leadership roles that are horrible leaders that that they should not be in a leadership role. And it's and I see that all the time. Thankfully, not within my organization, but I but I see it when talking to people or, you know, when people share their stories of good and bad leaders.

Areti Iles [00:03:31]:
Yeah. It's there's definitely something there.

Neil Benson [00:03:33]:
Yeah. So I I I like that broadening of the definition. So somebody who inspires me either in my organization or outside is especially if they're inspiring me to take action and move forward in a positive direction, That's a leader. Whether or not they so they're leading me. They might not even know who I am or that I exist.

Areti Iles [00:03:52]:
They might not even think of them yeah. They might not even think of themselves as a leader. A lot of the time, great leaders don't realize that they are leaders at all.

Neil Benson [00:03:59]:
Yeah. So you don't think a leader has to have a mission in mind and, team in mind that they're leading? You can be a leader unconsciously.

Areti Iles [00:04:09]:
Yes. Great title for a book, The Unconscious Leader. There you go. Yes.

Neil Benson [00:04:13]:
Yeah. Okay. Have there been people like that in in your life that that you think, have inspired you, and have unconsciously led you along and boosted your path?

Areti Iles [00:04:25]:
Yeah. Definitely. If if we were all asked this question, I think potentially the people that we would think of weren't necessarily our leaders officially at all.

Neil Benson [00:04:34]:
Right.

Areti Iles [00:04:34]:
So I've have had many people that have influenced me in my life in terms of, my my career, the the choices I've made, people that have helped me, people that have given me guidance or advice, and they weren't necessarily linked to me in a leadership position. Some of them were, sure, but a lot of them weren't. Yeah. And and I've been very lucky to to have have that guidance, but there's also been leaders that have not given guidance, that have not given advice, that have not particularly, into a certain extent, had the time to do it as well because this is the issue with leadership roles in their defined, you know, boxed definition of an organization is that a lot of the time, you're not necessarily given enough time to do the the people elements of your leadership role. Yep. So you end up doing your job, but you're not necessarily having the time to to do the the guidance and the advice and the looking after the people, which takes a lot of time.

Neil Benson [00:05:26]:
Yeah. I am thinking back to some of my childhood memories of my scout leader, and they act as as a leader. Obviously, they had a a title, but the counseling and guidance they give me was a was a leadership that, I'd love to emulate. I remember my my year five biology teacher. She was a leader, and inspired me in in my, school career. So, yeah, there's there's definitely examples of people who I didn't report to, but, yeah, I would consider them to be leaders. So that's that's a really interesting idea. Is there a difference between a leader and a manager? My own perspective, I think, you know, of managing things, projects, marketing campaigns, Scottish Summit events, you know, your community events, things like that.

Neil Benson [00:06:10]:
That's a that's a thing that needs to get managed. But and there may or may not be people involved, whereas for me, a leader, is involved with with the people side of things. Do do you agree with that definition, or am I going down a path?

Areti Iles [00:06:23]:
No. I I I fully agree. I think what makes a leader a leader is the fact that they care about people, and they spend the time and the effort to actually make sure those people are doing the things that are important to them Yeah. In their life, and they're trying to help them, give them the opportunities they need at the end of the day to to to get to where they wanna be. I think for me the that that's the main difference because a manager will not necessarily know what you're trying to achieve in your career, won't necessarily know how to help you get there. They may not be interested in knowing either. They just want you to do a good job, great. Are you doing a good job? Excellent.

Areti Iles [00:06:55]:
You know? Well done. Yeah. Off we go. Whereas for me, a leader is it kind of takes a more of a broader interest in you, your life, and what you're trying to achieve and potentially the challenges that you're facing right now, as well. Yeah. Because in a lot of situations, we all come to work every day, and we have other things going on in our lives sometimes that are very much affecting how we are feeling, but we won't necessarily talk about that because we don't feel like the workplace is the is the place to get support for that. Yeah. But a lot of the time, you know, it's it makes a massive difference if, one of the leaders in the business picks up on the fact that actually you don't look quite right or you seem a bit, you know, quiet or and they'll come and talk to you about it and say, no.

Areti Iles [00:07:35]:
Are you okay? I know you're usually very, you know, enthusiastic and passionate about these things, but I see that you've kind of been withdrawn. You know, is everything alright? And and it's also about how leaders respond when things don't go well. You know, managers will often be very harsh on the people, whereas I think leaders will be harsh on the problem very soft on the people because they will recognize that, you know, we are all trying to do a good job. I don't think anyone comes to work any day of the week thinking, oh, I I'm looking how can I mess things up today? You know? No one no one does that. You know, we all we all really wanna do a great job. I'd like to think anyway. So it's I've I've seen situations where managers have been very, harsh other people. And I'm thinking, well, this isn't it's not their fault.

Areti Iles [00:08:23]:
You know? Things happen. It's it's about figuring out how can you actually, you know, make sure that we all fix this together. And and Yeah. Yeah. I think that that makes a difference as well. How we deal with things when they don't go the right way.

Neil Benson [00:08:36]:
I've never worked in one of those at least I don't recall. Maybe maybe if I went to see a trauma counselor, they would they would find something in my past. I don't recall ever working in an environment with one of those managers who yells and screams at people and tears strips off them and makes them feel terrible and and treats them punitively. I don't think I've had that experience. Maybe I'm lucky. I don't know if you've had that experience. But, you know, if I think of, the the way that Elon Musk, for example, is sometimes portrayed in the media as a very tough person to work for, you know, famously sleeps in his office and fires people on a whim and and does it in public. And, you know, some of those traits, if true, wouldn't live up to your ideal of what a leader is, and yet there he is, CEO of, like, three or four different businesses.

Neil Benson [00:09:25]:
He doesn't seem like an empathetic type that meets our standard that we just set of being a leader. Do you think I'm being unfair on Elon Musk?

Areti Iles [00:09:33]:
I mean, I don't I don't know Elon Musk, so I don't know if all of those things are true or whether it that these are things people say about him. But, I I think it's important that however you are as a leader, you are genuine because you don't wanna change who you are. And if in the case of Elon Musk, that is how he is, you know, when he gets pissed off, you know about it kind of kind of person, He will attract a certain personality to work for him. And I and I think from what I know of of him and his businesses, that is what he is all about. He's, you know, go big or go home kind of guy. So Yeah. If that's not who you are as a person, you won't be attracted to that. But the people that will be attracted to that will then achieve something very, very specific.

Areti Iles [00:10:15]:
And I think in his business, he's, you know, he's trying to achieve something in a very specific way, and he thinks there is a very specific way to achieve it as well. So I think he gets credit for the fact that he's not he's not pretending that he's an empathetic person Yeah. I guess is what I'm saying. You know what he's like before you go work for him potentially. Yep. That's true. I think that's okay. I think it's different if someone suggests that they're a very empathetic person and then you go to work for them and they're a completely horrible person that's not empathetic at all.

Areti Iles [00:10:47]:
I think then that's a bigger problem. But in the case of Elon Musk, I think it's he you you know what he's like before you go work for him or his businesses. So you shouldn't be surprised if but would would I go work there? Probably not because my personality is very different to that. Yep. But that's just what it is, different personalities.

Neil Benson [00:11:09]:
Yeah. I was really lucky when I worked in California. One of the team members that I worked with, I took a job at SpaceX, and he arranged for us to go on a tour. So I got a tour of the SpaceX facility in in Hawthorne, and it it was fabulous. It was, like, amazing. I wasn't allowed into the control room in the mission control center. I wasn't a US passport holder, so I wasn't allowed in there. But, yeah, it's got big glass walls, and, I could see the team.

Neil Benson [00:11:34]:
And we went out with some of the crew from SpaceX, in Hermosa Beach. It was like a party time by the by the beach and fabulously talented, driven bunch of people. Like, party hard, work hard, super smart, and I think they know what they're getting themselves in for. And I felt a little bit inspired, you know, despite the the rumors about his management style. Yeah. So it's interesting that he can despite, there's some of the press that he attracts, he can still attract some awesome talent.

Areti Iles [00:12:05]:
And and, you know, he is very driven. I think he his behavior is driven by the fact that he's really believes in the fact that he's trying to achieve something that is very difficult to achieve.

Neil Benson [00:12:14]:
Yeah.

Areti Iles [00:12:15]:
And I think when you're you are trying to achieve something extremely difficult, I don't think necessarily that there is any other way to lead other than the way he is leading because you don't, to a certain extent, have the luxury of I'm gonna call it wasting time, although obviously I don't consider it wasting time, but I think even we consider it wasting time. You know, he is laser focused on what he's trying to achieve. So from that perspective, I think, you know, he he's ruthlessly efficient in his leadership, which can be seen as not empathetic. Because to have empathy is to have long conversations with people sometimes, and I imagine he would say, yeah. That's I I wish I could do that, but I don't have time for that, given what we're trying to do. So Yeah. I think that's probably where she would be coming from.

Neil Benson [00:13:03]:
I think we agree that that having empathy and high EQ score, if that was measured, would be a a great trait for a leader. Not all leaders have that. And I'm wondering if, if you were the chief executive of a Microsoft partner business and trying to grow that and you didn't have that characteristic, could you surround yourself with other leaders in your leadership team who are more empathetic than you, who can look after the rest of the team while you focus on business development or strategy or finance or, you know, some other function. Can you surround yourself with with people who make up for for your missing characteristics?

Areti Iles [00:13:41]:
I think you to a certain extent, you absolutely have to. Otherwise, your business isn't gonna work, I think. It's not gonna survive well or it's not gonna be you're gonna have high attrition, potentially. If you're a leader that doesn't have any empathy and you don't have anyone in your team that is able to fill that gap, you're gonna have a gap in your business, and you're gonna fill that from a performance perspective as well. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, you know, what is it? What is a team? What is a com what is a company? What is an organization? It's just people getting together, doing stuff together. That's it. And I think we lose sight of that when we say, oh, you know, this company has made billions of well, actually, no people have come together and, you know, other people have found what those people are doing valuable, and therefore, there is revenues.

Areti Iles [00:14:19]:
It's a it's a it's a byproduct. Right? It's it's what we what the corporation does it for, but at the end of the day, it's people. So if you have a leader that is is very good in some things and not others, I think a sign of a good leader is actually that self awareness to know what they are lacking and to get people working beside them Yep. That will tell them when they're lacking that. They will give them that feedback, but they will also feed into the decisions that are being made from a leadership perspective. And that's why I think the whole area of diversity and inclusion is so important in the last few, decades because we recognize now that if you do not have a diverse and inclusive leadership team, you're gonna have blind spots.

Neil Benson [00:15:02]:
Yes.

Areti Iles [00:15:02]:
Absolutely. The only way to actually deal with it is is to have people there that are from a diverse background and diverse experiences so that's yeah. You can actually support the people in the organization in the right way that you you you try to minimize the amount of blind spots. I don't think you can ever completely eradicate them, but at least if you've got enough people around you that are looking at different things and have different specialisms as well, you should have a good a good organization that works well because no one is a master of everything.

Neil Benson [00:15:33]:
Right. But positively looking for people and hiring people who are not like yourself is, it kinda goes against the grain. Right? You you meet somebody, you strike up a conversation, you find out you've got a lot in common, you know, you seem to get on well, they they naturally become somebody you might enjoy working with. But the fact that they're so like you might mean they're not a great candidate for your business. You need to find people who've got some opposites to you, and and those people maybe aren't as easy to get along with initially, because they're they're different. They come from a different background, different culture, and, yeah, it's you've got less in common. But, yeah, I think you have to push through those biases and, and hire the people who can bring something that that you haven't got, and and not just look for more people like like yourself.

Areti Iles [00:16:22]:
Yeah. Exactly. And and sometimes it's what it's what's needed as well. So we have clients that are very, it's a personality thing. So you'll have clients that are very, talkative. They love to have a chat. They love to, you know, share their experiences, And you have clients that are all very factual. They're all about the numbers and the project, where it's going.

Areti Iles [00:16:46]:
And we have project managers that are very factual and numbers driven and where is the project going. And we have project managers that love chat more than the other ones. And it they we like having a variety because they they will you know, it's a case of building the client relationship. And if you're a client that loves to have a chat and talk about things and you get the project manager that only wants to talk to you about the project, only wants to talk to you about the numbers, only wants to talk to you about where you're going, only wants to talk about the things you haven't done, you're not gonna enjoy that project experience. Sure. They are great they're a great project manager, and it's but it's not about their skills. It's about their ability to build a relationship with that client. And if you if you can't and it's the same with the consultants.

Areti Iles [00:17:26]:
If there if if you're a completely different personality, sure, it's a great experience. It's it's I think it's great to actually work with someone that's completely different to you because you learn a lot more from that than working with someone that's just like yourself. But at the same time I think it's difficult to build a relationship with someone where they won't give you anything back and and you you just can't you you don't feel like you you literally can't connect with them. So I think it's good to have that variety as well because if you only had one one type of one and and not not any of the other, yes, you would it it things would still probably be fine, but I think the the overall feeling of did I enjoy this project, it would that would eradicate a little bit, I think.

Neil Benson [00:18:09]:
Yeah. It seems like you might be, somebody who appreciates some of the tools that we can use to help people understand more by themselves. I'm thinking of, the Myers Briggs type indicator or the DISC method and and those kinds of things that help you understand your your characteristics. I find those I've, I read a book recently and it it, oh, I need to think of the name of it. It called it I went through the survey and it said I'm a rebel, and I I hate being motivated externally or internally, and I find myself really hard to meet deadlines whether somebody else is putting pressure on me and I'm trying to hold myself accountable. I'm the person who likes to go against the rules all the time. And I was like, finally. That's that's you know, all these other boxes that I've somebody's tried to put me in never quite fit this one.

Neil Benson [00:18:57]:
Embarrassingly, it doesn't sound like a great label, but it's pretty accurate. Have you used a number of those tools with yourself, with your teams? Are you a fan of anything in particular?

Areti Iles [00:19:07]:
So I don't like personality tests, actually, as it happens because Okay. Although I think being a rebel is a great thing. Right? I I it's it's all I'm hearing is you like to make up your own mind, and I think that's fine. You know, you don't like to be told. You just wanna make up your own mind when you make up your own mind. And I think that's that's great. Probably I'm a rebel too. So I think we should all be rebels.

Areti Iles [00:19:30]:
But, personality so I I'm not against them. I just I just think they need to be taken with a pinch of salt because they're an indication of how what someone is like but we will we won't always be like that. It's it's the same I think for me with you know how do you deal with conflict. In some examples, we'll go all guns blazing. And in some examples, we'll withdraw. And in some examples, we'll do something else. So I think, we adapt to a certain extent. So I don't think we have one personality and that's it.

Areti Iles [00:20:01]:
I think our personality changes depending on the situation to a certain extent. So, you know, personality tests are interesting, but for me, that's it. They're just interesting. It's interesting to see what they say about you and whether you would agree with them. But I don't I don't I wouldn't consider them if making a decision, so to speak, on anything. But they are fun. I'll give you that. They are very fun.

Areti Iles [00:20:23]:
Apart from if they tell you something you don't wanna hear.

Neil Benson [00:20:25]:
Yeah. I I was thinking about that whenever you talk about the project manager because, when I think about a client and and their their communication style or preference, that's only one person within a customer organization. There's always a a team of people in the customer organization we're working with, and they all have their own styles and preferences. And so a good project manager might have a a certain natural style, and that fits well with the primary contact that they're interfacing with on a day to day basis. But they're gonna be dealing with others, and they need to be able to, bend their style from meeting to meeting or person to person, understand that they have a a natural tendency, but they need to be able to change that from time to time depending upon the audience. And I think that's that's a a great characteristic to have as well.

Areti Iles [00:21:09]:
Yeah. Definitely. Adapting to change, I think, is the is the main thing that, makes life a lot easier, I think Yeah. Is is, yeah, being able to adapt to change, for sure, big characteristic.

Neil Benson [00:21:22]:
So we we've talked about this idea of of inspiring people, having empathy, and understanding for them is one of the defining characteristics of a of a of a leader, not having direct reports necessarily or being in charge of something. Are there any other characteristics that you think defines a leader? Or or let's let's expand and go, what makes a great leader? Is it just lots of EQ? Is it, you know, tons of empathy? Or what else can elevate somebody to greatness in in your mind?

Areti Iles [00:21:53]:
So I think there is a difference between what makes a great leader and what makes a great leader likable. Because I think emotional intelligence and empathy makes you a likable leader but does that make you a good leader? And and and do we define a good leader as someone people like then the two I think are related. But for example, I think, you know, Elon Musk is a is a is a is a great leader. He just isn't always very a very likable one for certain people. So I think it's it's a it's a difficult one because it it it it depends, unfortunately I think. It depends it depends on the situation how you what what each person values. So for me a good leader is yes the the having empathy part of it is important because if because for me, it's all about people dealing with people at the end of the day. Yeah.

Neil Benson [00:22:46]:
So I

Areti Iles [00:22:47]:
think if you're not good at doing that and if you're not good at empathizing with someone's, situation or where they're coming from, will they feel that you're a good leader for them? No. Chances are they won't. Yeah. But there's also tough love. As a leader, sometimes you have to not be empathetic and actually say, look. Things went wrong here, and we need to fix this, and we need to do something differently, and this should never have happened. And it's, there's a right way for me to do that, and there's a wrong way for me to do it. You know, I would never wanna hurt someone's feelings, so I would focus on facts.

Areti Iles [00:23:22]:
But we're all human at the end of the day. I think you you try your best as a leader, but dealing with people, I think, is just one part of leadership. I think the other parts are where is the your organization going? What are you trying to achieve with this group of people you have in your organization? How are you gonna get them there? What supports do they need to get there? How are they going are they gonna have the right tools to to do their jobs properly? What training do they need to do their jobs properly? How are you gonna decide who the right person for your organization is? And all of those things, they don't really have anything to do with empathy. They're much more logical, to a certain extent.

Neil Benson [00:23:59]:
Yeah. They're kind

Areti Iles [00:24:00]:
of strategic brain. Yeah. So I think you need to have the strategic brain as a leader as well. And it doesn't have to you don't have to be leading a whole organization. You could just be, you know, leading a small team. But it's it's really all about what are you trying to achieve? How are you going to get there? What does that look like for the people that are in there? What how do the people need to change and adapt in order to deliver what we're asking them to deliver? Because a lot of the time, it's a moving target within technology as well, what you're actually delivering now compared to what we're delivering in a year from now, particularly right now with the the rise of AI. You know, it's it's changing rapidly. So there is a huge amount of vision and aiming and strategy that needs to be looked at particularly right now as to what are how are you gonna have a technology business that's gonna survive in the future and keep being profitable because what we are actually how the world is looking to use technology is changing rapidly right now.

Areti Iles [00:25:00]:
So it's, I think that is a big part of a of a of leadership as well. No one wants a leader that everyone loves but actually drives a business to the ground. Yeah. You know, everyone wants to have a job. At the end of the day, everyone wants a salary, in in their in their, in in their bank account every month. So, unfortunately, I think empathy to a certain extent is very important but secondary because fun one of the fundamental parts that you want from a leader is for them to lead you. You don't necessarily want them to, you know, give you a shoulder to cry on. Most of the time, you know, you can get that from your friends and your family and your colleagues that love you.

Areti Iles [00:25:35]:
From what you want from your leader primarily is that direction and that vision.

Neil Benson [00:25:41]:
Yeah. Yeah. I I think you you've hit the nail on the head. It's not making those big strategic decisions that that keep the profit company profitable, that that, you know, outpace the competition, that keep ahead of the changing technology. That that's a real remarkable sign of an awesome leader.

Areti Iles [00:25:58]:
Yeah. And explain and explaining why as well. Right. You know? And be able to communicate and

Neil Benson [00:26:02]:
bring people along on the journey.

Areti Iles [00:26:03]:
Yeah.

Neil Benson [00:26:04]:
Great stuff. Are there one or two leaders that that stand out in your mind? Either, you know, historical leaders in lit literature that that we don't often think of or people in, you know, contemporary business circles, that are paragons of of leadership that that you admire?

Areti Iles [00:26:19]:
So there are leaders in my business currently that I think are leading in a very compassionate way. And what what I mean by that is, they they very much care about the people. They they wanna make sure that everything that is being done makes sense to to to the teams, that everyone is clear what we're trying to achieve, everyone is clear why we're trying to achieve it, and everyone understands what their role is in it. But I think for me, the the the thing that makes, the leaders you remember or at least the leaders I remember historically are the people that actually took the time to ask me you know what am I trying to do after this current role I'm in? What you know, what where am I going with this kind of question? Yeah. So when I was at university, I had, I was working part time for the majority of when I did my degree and when I did my masters, I was working part time for this, small wholesaler. And the first person that gave me my kind of first job was the managing director of that company. And, he took a great interest in what I was trying to achieve in in my life. And I was very young at the time.

Areti Iles [00:27:29]:
I was, you know, I think when when I started working there, I was actually probably still 18, if not 19. And he gave me extremely high amounts of responsibility. I was managing the marketing and IT of the company, which you wouldn't necessarily give a 19 year old. But he was absolutely he was like, go for it. Do it. It's it's you know, you'll be great. And to have that to to be given that responsibility by someone, particularly when you're when you're that young, and for them to then say to, you know, what are you gonna do next? I know you're not gonna work here forever. What What are you gonna do when you finish? You know, where do you wanna get to? Yeah.

Areti Iles [00:28:05]:
Having that guidance and that support and that interest by someone, it's almost like, you know, I think I think the leaders you remember are the people that actually become your mentors effectively Yeah. For the future. I think for me, that that that managing director of that company really stands out, because he would he he just let me run with it. He gave me lots of responsibility. I I once I made a mistake in the HTML when I was editing it, and the website was down over the weekend. And he he did not shout at me about it. I got it fixed. It was fine.

Areti Iles [00:28:37]:
You know, he was very, very kind to me, I think, is what I'm saying overall.

Neil Benson [00:28:43]:
And

Areti Iles [00:28:43]:
we and we stayed friends after that, you know, and and I miss him dearly because he passed away a couple of, years ago from cancer, unfortunately. So, yes, he was he was lovely. He was a he was a a wonderful man.

Neil Benson [00:28:57]:
I I like that idea of finding out what people want, where they want their career to go, what's what's the next step, what vision do they have for their lives, and helping them get there, either inside your organization, if possible, maybe outside if they have to. But there are quite a lot of people, in life who don't quite know what they want to do. They don't they don't have a map. They don't have a plan. They can't quite articulate what they want to do next. They're open to ideas, but they don't have a firm goal. And then there's another bunch who are, contracting because they they just love doing the the job, the technical performance that they they deliver, and they don't want to have to map out a career. They don't wanna have to progress.

Neil Benson [00:29:43]:
They just wanna deliver a great project, find another one, and do another great job over there. And that gives them flexibility. There's a lot of responsibility. How do we handle those people and lead them in in that way that you've described, helping them find their path and help move them along it if they don't know what the path is or if they don't want one.

Areti Iles [00:30:01]:
I think it's about potentially showing them the paths they could take because a lot of the time you don't know what you want to do because you don't really know. You know, you're walking down the road that has no lights on it, and it's just dark, and you've got no idea how you got there, why you're there, where are you gonna go next. And I think it's kind of about shining a light in front of that road and going, you could go into these 15 different directions. Yeah. Which one, you know, do you want to? Because that's that's also the question as well is and and you raise a very valid point. Not not everyone wants to have a career that develops and changes and and, you know, gets higher and higher, so to speak. As as time goes on. Some people will get to a certain point and and they that's what they like doing, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Areti Iles [00:30:50]:
You know? We we don't all have to aspire to be presidents of a country or whatever, however we decide that the pinnacle of of of success is. You know, I think I think for me being, ultimately having I mean, we're getting deep here, but having a successful life, at the end of the day, has nine times out of 10 nothing to do with your job. You know? Having a successful fulfilling life, I would argue, is it works very fulfilling, and you can get massive amounts of joy from it and and achievement. But, you know, are are we are we ever gonna be on our deathbed wishing we had had the chance to work for another five years and not retired When we retired probably not you know there's it's fun it works fun but there's other things that are more fun. So I think I think it's a it's a part of our life work's just a part of our life and I think it's about making sure that what you're doing right now you're enjoying doing and if you do know that there's a thing after it that you want to go on to that you're using some of the time to prepare for that and plan for that. And I think it's, you know, a lot of the time I see people that get to the annual review periods or or, you know, promotion cycles in their companies, and they get they get to the to the review meeting and they go, oh, by the way, I wanna get promoted. It's like, it's a bit late to tell me now, you know, have a if you had told me six months ago, we could have started looking at, you know, what you need to do in order to get promoted. Yeah.

Areti Iles [00:32:18]:
Is there anything you're missing? And, you know, if they're not great, you know, by all means, get them promoted. But there is sometimes this element of people coming to you at at the review meeting saying, oh, by the way, you know, I was expecting to be promoted three months ago. And you think, well, why didn't you communicate that to anybody? So I think having having a a manager or a leader, however we decide to define it, someone that will say, are you trying to achieve something? Are you trying to get off this road that you're on? Are you trying to get somewhere else? So that you can actually help them get there because there's nothing more, devastating from an employee's perspective as well for them to be wanting to get promoted and feeling like they deserve it. But then the company is saying, that's great, but we had no idea you wanted to do this and there's x, y, and zed things that you haven't done. So you need to get them done. Or even worse, companies where they say, oh, that's great that you wanna get promoted, but we only promote people once a year. And the next time we can promote you is a year from now. Yeah.

Areti Iles [00:33:16]:
You know? Half a year.

Neil Benson [00:33:18]:
Understood that. I never understood that. I was quite old. But

Areti Iles [00:33:21]:
Yeah. I I didn't either. And in my company, we promote people when they're good and ready for being promoted. It's there's no timeline against it either. But it's I think having those conversations in advance with your manager is important. And this is the thing. I don't think it's your manager's or your leader's responsibility. I think people, particularly younger people, need to recognize that they need to be driving this to a certain extent.

Areti Iles [00:33:45]:
It's great if you have a manager or a leader that cares enough about you to ask those questions. But all the time, they might not. And I think we all need to take responsibility for making our feelings known, for lack of a better word, when it comes to work and generally, I would argue. Yeah.

Neil Benson [00:34:01]:
It inspired me to go and have more conversations with my team about what they want to do. And the ones who for whom I don't know what their path is or they're not sure, I like that idea of letting them try lots of things, take lots of different paths. They just haven't found their groove yet. Let's figure out what that is by giving them lots of experiments, lots of different, opportunities, and and they'll find their path. And for those who are settled and don't really wanna progress, that's great too. Like, they they you know, there's other things in their life that they get a lot of value from. They don't need a lot of stress at work. So helping them retain that sense of safety and comfort and satisfaction is just as important as helping somebody else who's striving.

Neil Benson [00:34:42]:
Right? So two good things I can take away from this and and chat to my team about, whenever I pick up with them next week. So that's great.

Areti Iles [00:34:49]:
I'm glad to hear it.

Neil Benson [00:34:50]:
It's been such a pleasure, talking to you. Is there anything else you'd like to to add to the conversation about what defines a leader? And if people are would like to follow you and and find out more about your content, how can they do that as well?

Areti Iles [00:35:04]:
So I think the final thing about leadership is no one's perfect. I think it's it's tough being a leader in the first place. And I don't think a lot of the time the people that you look after or you know they'll report to you however however we think of it, we don't often think about our leaders, we are often quite self centered that we think about ourselves. And I think it's worth remembering that, you know, there is there are many books on leadership, but there isn't, there isn't a customized book for everyone, becoming a leader. And sometimes people become leaders with no guidance as to how to be one at all. So there is the I I think I think it's worth us remembering that leaders like to be asked how they are too. And and and how, you know, I I love it when people come to me and say, you know, how can I help you? Because a lot of the time our jobs as leaders is how can I help everyone else literally? Yeah. But at not many people will come and say, can I do can I do something for you? Because we we seem untouchable to a certain extent.

Areti Iles [00:36:10]:
We always try to have a brave face on. We always try to make sure we we show that we are handling everything and that everything is fine and and there is a mental toll that that can take over time. So I think it's important for all of us to think about because every leader has a leader, to a certain extent. It's remembering to to go up to our leader as well and say, you know, how are you doing? Where are you going? Yeah. You know? Let's go and ask our leaders. What are they gonna do next? But I think it's maybe not that because that might be yeah. They might see this as coming after their jobs or something. But I think there is that element of recognizing the fact that being a leader is not always easy.

Areti Iles [00:36:50]:
And as a leader, you need support as well. And it's not necessarily that needs to come from your team. Your team shouldn't need to support you. That's the whole point of you being their leaders that you support them. But it's making sure that we recognize that they are they are people too. And I think a lot of the time with leaders and managers, we we can lose track of the fact that they are people too. Right. Yeah.

Areti Iles [00:37:13]:
Yeah. And they can make mistakes, and I think it's I think we need to make it okay for leaders to make mistakes because, inevitably, this will happen. It's not straightforward Yeah. Sometimes.

Neil Benson [00:37:23]:
It's it's pretty complicated sometimes. Yeah. For sure.

Areti Iles [00:37:26]:
It can be.

Neil Benson [00:37:27]:
Right? Yeah. And you've got a you've got a LinkedIn profile. Is there anywhere else people should go to to find out more about you and your work?

Areti Iles [00:37:33]:
Yes. I have a LinkedIn profile. So, yes, do follow, connect, if you wanna hear all about, at the moment, I'm talking a lot about adopting AI and the the challenges with that and and how we can adopt it and what we need to consider when we're adopting it. Because there's a lot of throwing spaghetti on the wall at the moment and seeing what sticks, but we can't we can't do that forever with AI. So talk a lot about that.

Neil Benson [00:37:55]:
Yeah. We're in an experimental phase for sure.

Areti Iles [00:37:57]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's fun. So, yeah, if if people are interested in that or the nine three six five Power Platform CE, I do a lot of community work as well around the user group. I go to a lot of conferences. I kind of put post out for that as well. So if anyone is interested in any of that, please do follow. I do also have a website that is in desperate need of updating in fairness.

Areti Iles [00:38:17]:
But if you wanna learn more about me outside of my kind of current role position in LinkedIn stuff, you can also check that out. It's areteaiols.com. And there's also photography in there because I, I used to be a photographer for many years. So Oh, cool. If you fancy looking at some nice photos, go explore in in the website.

Neil Benson [00:38:36]:
That's something. Check it

Areti Iles [00:38:37]:
out. Yeah.

Neil Benson [00:38:38]:
Awesome. Thank you so much. Appreciate you joining me on a practice leading. Thanks, Aurelie.

Areti Iles [00:38:43]:
Thank you, Neil.

Neil Benson [00:38:44]:
In our discussion today, Auredie shared some insights for me to reflect on. Firstly, the definition of leadership. For Auredie, leadership starts within yourself and then expands to include anyone you can influence or inspire. It doesn't need a formal job title or reporting lines. And Joel Lindstrom talked about the same concept of needing to manage yourself first before you can lead others. Secondly, was the value of empathy in leadership. Managers ensure things are done well, and leaders ensure their people are well by providing a supportive and nurturing environment and having a deep caring for the people in their team. Lastly, diversity has a strategic advantage.

Neil Benson [00:39:29]:
We all have our own limitations, and I agree with Aretti that we can and should surround ourselves with talented people that complement us. Building diverse teams addresses blind spots, offers a greater range of perspectives that can foster innovation and better decision making. Inclusion isn't just a political slogan or political football these days. It can be used as a strategic lever in your business. Thanks to my guest, Haredi Ellis, for joining me. You'll find links to Haredi's profile in the episode description. I hope you enjoyed this practice leading episode and found it just as inspiring as I did. Are we already connected on LinkedIn? I hope so.

Neil Benson [00:40:11]:
But if we're not, please send me an invitation to connect and let me know you listened to practice leading. I'd love to be part of your network. Until next time, keep experimenting.